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Forum:Challenging old rulings and guidelines
You know, I half feel like congradulating everyone for FINALLY testing the old guidelines laid out because I was beginning to get nervous about how no one tested them... And half sort of not sure about why some of the little details aren't being tested. Okay, aside from me and perhaps one or two others there is virtually NO ONE left from the begining of the wikias history, so *some* practiceswe did then are long dead. The name Shichibukai, for instance, was chosen on wikipedia back in... 2003? It was when we switched over to the wikia after the effects of the wikipedia events that we decided to stick with it. Names like these can be challenged regardless if everyone feels the need to challenge them. You must understand anything written pre-Enies Lobby arc pretty much was subject to any anti-4Kids hate and I'm afriad we've been left with a legacey of just going with what we think is the closet to Japanese. Treaidionally, if the name was the Japanese word of "seagull" for instance, we had the Japanese version, we didn't translate it. It was just a result of the 4Kids kick we had... But yeah. Names. In general, how do people feel about how we're doing them? I do note there doesn't seem to be a general "rule of the thumb" anumore and I do note we're now considering translating some. Traditionally we didn't translation. And thats sort of what I want to discuss, I want to know how everyone feels with the names overall. I note that 4Kids dub is LONG dead, that we have a satisfactionary dub from FUNi and everyone seems "alright" on Viz. I'm not about to prepose on using their schemes because particularly with Viz there about 5 years behidn the Japanese version, God I don't think thats a good idea to use them. In fact thats why we've never bothered with Viz names. This is one practice I think we should maintain. Anyway, how do we feel, yeah, that question? Also, should we scrap some of our older guidelines related to naming, as we don't seem to follow them anymore? Discussion I agree that these changes are good and I'm in favor of translating some things. We shouldn't go with Viz names. I like the system of going with the best translation of a name until Oda says something otherwise. In regard to names that don't have a clear translation (Shichibukai) in specific), it would be best to go with the Japanese. 01:51, May 23, 2011 (UTC) As I said on the talk page Japanese names are used because that is what most fansubbers/scanlators use. I don't think any name or title should be directly translated. Imagine if that happened. Naruto Uzumaki would be Fishcake Whirlpool, Ichigo Kurosaki would be Strawberry Black Blossom, and so on. SeaTerror 03:32, May 23, 2011 (UTC) It's not names so much as things that have actual practical English translations, like Watchdog Unit of the Law instead of Hou no Banken Butai or whatever it is. 03:39, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :DancePowderer is right, plus, using what most translators use isn't a good reason, it's not their wiki. :To my mind, these titles should be translated (with maybe some exceptions). I mean, come on, Yonkō just means "Four Emperors", leaving it untranslated really seems childish to me. sff9 (talk) 07:57, May 23, 2011 (UTC) We should only translate the things whose meanings are certain and whose conversions make sense. It would make sense to translate Yonkou to Four Emperors, because that is the translation. I'm not saying that we should change Yamakaji to Vice Admiral Forest Fire or Onigumo to Vice Admiral Demon Spider. That sounds about as ridiculous as Fishcake Whirlpool. By changing and testing the rules already in place, we are going into unknown territory, and we need to play it by ear and approach every issue carefully and most importantly, individually. Yonkou ought to be changed, but Shichibukai should be left alone since we have an unclear definition given the translations so far. 08:37, May 23, 2011 (UTC) Yonkou should stay Yonkou/Yonko because they are an institution that is unique to One Piece. That doesn't apply to Marines or Pirates that's why they can be translated, but the definition of Yonkou just doesn't carry over when you translate it. Translating it would be like translating The Beatles to Die Käfer. Technically correct, but not needed/helpful. -- 12:52, May 23, 2011 (UTC) Agree Panda, on top of that I see nothing wrong in leaving certain things untranslated when the community is adapted to the name. How is that childish. 13:08, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :This is just my opinion, I don't really care about this matter. I don't personally see what's lost in translation, since "Yonkō" literally means "Four Emperors" (this may be harder for Shichibukai, I agree on this point). I don't think the Beatles is a good example, because 1) it's a proper name, not an institution name, and 2) it does not literally translate into anything (because of the pun). :I find it childish (no offence intended) when a fan community leaves words untranslated for the sake of it, typically "nakama". It's true that "Yonkō" is a different matter though, but it sorta rings the same bell to me. sff9 (talk) 13:46, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :: The Beatles might not have been the best example, but take any unique military organisation (which the Yonkou are essentially) and you'll see that you don't translate them either. The Navy Seals are always the Navy Seals, the Marines are always the Marines, the Wehrmacht are always the Wehrmacht. Or even paramilitary organisations such as Al-Queda, you always say Al-Queda and not "The Foundation"(I just found out it's called that. Puts a whole new twist on Naruto, doesn't it...), and you'll always say Taliban and not "students". Nakama is an even better case for something that shouldn't be translated. It conveys a lot more meaning in One Piece, than the literal English translation "Friend"/"Comrade"/"Crewmate" does. 14:04, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :::Your examples really make sense (not for "nakama", but I guess it's an everlasting debate). Now, actually there's another problem with translating "Yonkō", that you did not raise: this name designates not only the group, but also each member. "Shanks is a Yonkō" is translatable to "Shanks is an Emperor" or "Shanks is one of the Four Emperors", but something is lost in either case. (I'm still neutral on this matter though.) sff9 (talk) 14:17, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :::: That wouldn't really be a problem though, as you don't say "Shanks is a Yonkou" anyways, it's always been "Shanks is one of the Yonkou"/"Shanks is a member of the Yonkou" which you could easily translate and put into the right context "Shanks is one of the Four Emperors"/"Shanks is a member of the Four Emperors" (That doesn't mean I want it to be translated, just wanted to clear that up ;-) ) 14:23, May 23, 2011 (UTC) You're the only childish one here. Saying somebody is childish because they supported untranslated names is 100% asinine. No titles or names should ever be translated. Yonkou is better than Four Emperors, Shichibukai is better than Seven Warlords of the Sea, etc. No original names should ever be translated. Same with nicknames. Also read the Nakama translation debate. Nakama cannot be properly translated when the word has such special meaning to One Piece. SeaTerror 18:39, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :As usual, you really should try to be less curt and offensive. That would benefit everyone. sff9 (talk) 19:18, May 23, 2011 (UTC) Ironic coming from somebody who says people who like untranslated names are childish. SeaTerror 20:15, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :I didn't say that. Apparently you didn't try to understand what people say (again, as usual). sff9 (talk) 20:22, May 23, 2011 (UTC) "leaving it untranslated really seems childish to me." Nice try. SeaTerror 01:07, May 24, 2011 (UTC) Behave, you two. 01:45, May 24, 2011 (UTC) I blame some of the mess on things like yonko on us right at the beginning of the wikia. Considering our mentality was "Japanese, as much as possible, no translations" it closed so many doors. Okay, names of characters are fine, its just should we or shouldn't we translated everything else? There seems to be a divided opinion here on yonkou alone, I'll say the majority properly want yonko anyway. But this is the thing I was hoping to highlight here. Heck, I don't think a quarter of the editors here even know how we're suppose to be naming things. Hence why "challenging old guidelines" is the title of the topic. I don't know... There seems to more opinion now and less clarity over these kind of things. One-Winged Hawk 13:18, May 24, 2011 (UTC)